Io and Margaret go through the Star Wars narratives, Andor, and Rogue One, and talk about where they overlap historically with real resistance movements, what the narratives are commentating on about current resistance movements, where the representation falls short and generally why the Mon Calamari are the downest people in the universe to have on your side and why they should hangout with Roger Casement.

Host Info

Io can be found on Twitter @Bum_lung or on Instagram @Bum.Lung or you can find shirts and patches that they make on Etsy at https://www.etsy.com/shop/BumLung

Guest Info

Margaret can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. She is also the host of Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff and Live Like the World is Dying

Publisher

This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness.

Transcript

AGPH 1 Mon, Jan 23, 2023 10:18PM • 1:01:05 SUMMARY KEYWORDS fucking, people, revolution, rogue, empire, revolutionary, anarchists, star wars, insurrection, rebellion, shit, kill, big, irish, revolutionary movements, watch, doomed, sergey, throwing, character SPEAKERS Margaret, Io

Io 00:45 Star Wars talking about Star Wars Margaret and I Oh, here we are podcast. Hello. Welcome to the anarcho geek Power Hour. It's a it's it's a podcast.We are just trying to do trying to do a fun, fun, fun little podcast for us. Come on this journey. Well, you are we talk about nerd bullshit with all and I got a pal right here and you just heard her and it's Margaret killjoy. Margaret. How's it going? Good. Hello. Um, thanks for having me on as a guest on your show. I'll probably be trying to talk my way into being on this particular show a lot because it's pretty cool premise. Oh, yeah. Cats. Yeah. And anytime door doors always open because we, cuz we're all living on the same fortified mountain compound. So yeah, the general premise of the show is just we're going to talk about nerd bullshit and Ooh, we got one right out right out the gate something. I'm just just over the moon about we got and or That's no moon. Yeah, no, it's a television show. And a fairly good one. Mark. Margaret, what's your what's your background with Star Wars?

Margaret 02:07 I grew up not liking it as much as Star Trek to be real. But now that I'm older well actually both both franchises are really hit or miss. But I like a lot of the newer Star Wars stuff. And I particularly like Rogue One. So I was particularly excited about andorre Samah you well. Yeah, more more or less. Same though.

Io 02:30 You know what, let's scale that back. I am captured by Star Wars. Star Wars has my ass for life because I like it for the same reasons. I like like the Ramones, like because I grew up with it and it's stupid and it's stupid and simple and it's easy and that's why I liked it. I'll watch I'll watch all that garbage. And would you believe they made a good they made a good Star War not just a good Star War but a good show about my favorite shit which is morally complicated resistance movements. It really is kind of a a gift specifically to you but to probably half the people listening to this too. Yeah, if you haven't well if you haven't seen Andora highly recommended pause pause this podcast and and returned to it. Maybe someday but go watch and because we are going to talk about spoilers

Io 03:27 Yeah, the whole premise basically it's in a star war. You got your you got your Jedi you got your space lasers. Between all the all the Banthas and the R two D tos and the GES music you forget that the plot is about a rebellion and finally they're fucking doing something with it. I grew up really into Star Wars it was like my first it was my first fantasy sci fi anything and I read a lot of the extended universe which is no longer canon. Chewbacca is no longer canonically killed by a planet which is a real shame

Margaret 04:06 when did they when did they retcon at all when did they take the extended universe out

Io 04:11 when Mickey Mouse got his hands all over this franchise? None of that no, we're not dealing with any of that shit. So they just pick and choose the stuff from the extended universe they want to fuck with and some of it stays some of it when it's all it's all Calvin Ball in in the galaxy now but um yeah, even in the extended universe before though there were a few like really great like the Han Solo trilogy it's been you know, like a decade but I remember it really, really fucking whipping and these

Margaret 04:48 are the books right? Yes, the books

Io 04:53 and a couple of others deal with like, the rebellion but not not like not like This not and we're not going to. Well, Margaret, I don't know about you. I'm not here to argue that Rogue One is anarchists propaganda.

Margaret 05:10 No one might argue that Andorra's bar anarchists propaganda.

Io 05:13 Oh, yeah. Okay, well, I'm not here to argue and endorse anarchists propaganda made by made by the Mickey Mouse Corporation, but me as an anarchist and I'm really fucking enjoying it. And I just, I was trying to get everybody into this for so long because it's like, obviously coming from this place of knowledge of the continuum of revolutionary movements the writer said he was influenced by like Palestine and the Russian Revolution and the Haitian revolution. We watched Rogue one the other day, and you pointed out why does everyone have the slightest Irish Burr? I think because they were also influenced, especially in the funding about, especially in like the Mon Mothma funding of like, the Irish revolution, but okay, but yeah, let's, let's, let's get into it, get into it. We both recently finished. And or what do you think overall,

Margaret 06:12 I liked it. And I'm kind of, I mean, I'll watch junk TV, you know, because life is short, and why not spend my short life watching it. Okay, I don't have a really good excuse for why I watch drunk TV. But I will happily watch drunk TV, if, you know when I need to turn my brain off or whatever. And so I kind of like go into almost any TV show sort of expecting that. And then instead, I found like, actual depth and like, a less one or two dimensional resistance movement than I see. Basically, anytime I watch, especially TV, but movies as well, like resistance movements are so always clearly painted by people who've never either read history or threw a rock at a cop. You know, and like, I don't want to make any criminal accusations towards anyone involved in writing this, but I will guess they've at least read history. If not throwing a rock at a cop. Yeah, there's toxic cops, kids. It's I'll do whatever you want.

Io 07:13 I'll say it I got I got less the loose. Go empire. Yeah, yeah, fight the Empire. Everybody. Subscribe to our Patreon so you can see the video of me doing hand quotes

Io 07:32 Yeah, it is a there's dimension in it that I was not expecting from Star Wars. I was and I didn't really expect from, from anything. It's like writing writing is a hard job being able to like Express, like the moral complexity of a of a gorilla. What a gorilla sell who's gonna go rob go rob a big bank on some on some fucking planet. But they did it they pull they pull it off really? Well.

Margaret 08:10 Yeah. Tell me about tell me about the how this relates to the funding of the Irish revolution. I don't know if the other direction they want to take this but like, I'd be really interested in like, some of the more obvious or some of the historical parallels that we've picked up on. And I I would love to hear more about that.

Io 08:31 I was noticing the fact that they had Mon Mothma up in the mix who is a character from the original Star Wars who's the one who's sort of she says many Bothans died bring in this as these plans and she's always given the given the spiel and bringing her back as like someone who's down for like she's not she's not involved, obviously. But she's like, doing whatever she can to like get the money to these people who are off fucking Killing cops across the galaxy. While still like sitting pretty in high society and like working in parliament in this in this very like subdued liberal way that is like toeing the line in a way that a lot of especially like Irish representation in England was and even in some English representation in England was and like it's definitely like No, there's nothing that's a one to one on on Pandora and I wouldn't say that but like the way the IRA and the like pre Ira revolutionary movements funded themselves with a lot from the Irish diaspora who like made it big in Boston and New York sending money back or, or straight up sending boats full of guns back. Okay, to see, to see not only the like the scrappy people in the woods, ready to do whatever For and the shadowy Stellan Skarsgard who I would love to get into because I I love the whole Skarsgard brood but still and especially to see not only the like the cloak and dagger part of things but the be able to have some fuckin Game of Thrones political intrigue was Yeah, was very fun.

Margaret 10:27 Okay well and to go and continue with the Irish fundraising thing I'm sure someone out there fortunately I don't live in the parts of the Internet where people complain about the shit is like complaining that like two of our primary revolutionaries are in a gay relationship right? And you know two women who are who are dating and you know the tension in their relationship based on which one prioritizes love and which one prioritizes revolution but someone somewhere is like, Oh, they're making all these people gay or whatever it is no gay revolutionaries in history. First of all, it's like, obviously bullshit. But in terms of the Irish revolution, one of these such a good example of a character who does actually feel kind of a an and or Star Wars characters to some you heard of Roger Casement, the gay Irish night. If anyone's listening, there's this guy named Roger Casement, who was a big part of bringing down King Leopold from Belgium, the fucking monster who murdered millions and whatever is one of the worst on all of history of historical ghoul. Yeah, and there's just so there was this like, colonial Irish guy who was like part of the English colonization of Africa. And he was like, Oh, I'm on the wrong team, like absolutely on the wrong team. And he got like, really into Irish nationalism, as well as working really hard to fight against the exploitation of Africa and South America, actually. And then he like, went and spent his life and lost his life smuggling guns into Ireland for the for the Easter Rising, and he was so fucking gay. Just so completely, tragically gay. And I don't know, he feels like a very Star Wars character. I guess he's not again, he's not one for one. But yeah, these but he was part of the English establishment. He was a fucking Knight, you know?

Io 12:15 Yeah. And there was plenty of those. I mean, in every, in every movement, you know, death to the bourgeoisie, whatever, whatever. But who you can get a lot done if you if you know it, if you know in your heart, what's right and your positions. And just as an as an aside, because I it because it wouldn't, it wouldn't do to zero in on this, but maybe on a later episode. Definitely on a later episode. But there Yeah, yeah, the queers have been in every revolutionary movement in the early in the 19th century, there's a quote from somebody from some open, openly queer person that says, if you want to be yourself, you go find the anarchists.

Margaret 12:57 Yeah, I can't remember whose that quote is from. Yeah, no, totally. And, and so it makes sense that I really liked that we've entered a stage of gay representation in Hollywood or whatever, mainstream TV where it's not like the shocker. I mean, there's a little bit they play a little bit on the leg, oh, they're gay, but only like, the tiniest little bit, and no one is upset by it, you know, and that's nice.

Io 13:23 Yeah, and I it's a little bit of a hobby horse of mine that I the great meaty, the big media establishment knows that. By and large, the people consuming things like liberal culture is very ascendant in, in media, we'll see how long that lasts, but they know that, you know, representation or whatever, like cells, you can sell a terrible movie on the concept of representation when you put a diverse cast that they're like, the right mushroom and, and the, and the people making the decisions are still Lily whites and straight, but they all they'll sell it to you with whatever. And Star Wars very famously was like, we got a gay kiss in this one. And it's like two women kissing in the background, very easy to edit out for whatever international audiences wouldn't allow something like that. They're like, dogshit this one where they don't, it's not a big deal. It's just a fact. It's not Yeah, it's just a fact of it, that they that they are lovers in a, in a struggle together and the tension being that like you said, one is market is not more committed to the cause, but like the relationship is is eclipsed by the cause certainly. Yeah. Is like like a great a great tension to play with and I'm excited to see like they at least have a season to play around with.

Margaret 14:58 Yeah, I mean, it's kind of funny watching this because Just like well, you know how the characters end up? Like, yeah, you know, you know that andorre isn't ending up with Beck's in any way that like, at least like in any way that is worth note in, in Rogue One, you know? And then also, spoiler, they're all going to die. Well, at least at least Cassie and Endor is okay, well, my other historical parallel that I want to draw that I've been like thinking about a whole bunch since I saw it, there's this whole trope within it, and I really am curious to see what they'll do with it. I'm afraid they'll do it badly. But so far, they've kind of earned my trust more than most things. There's this thing about authoritarianism on the rebel side, right? There's this tension. I am incapable of remembering names. You've got your head honcho. Revolutionary guy, right. Who is the doomed revolutionary? What's his name? Skarsgard. luthan. Yeah, that's the actor's name.

Io 15:59 The one who's who's a antique seller.

Margaret 16:03 Yeah, you don't remember his name either. luthan. Something? Okay. luthan. So, you've got Lutheran and he is the tragic leader. And he specifically refers to himself as doomed at one point. And I think that this is probably consciously a reference to Catechism of the revolutionary bias organic net chef. And so again, that chef was this. This Russian revolutionary nihilist who actually if you want to hear me and I would talk about search, Sergey net, you have listened to my episode of cool people that have cool stuff on the Russian nihilists.

Io 16:39 Find it anywhere you find podcasts, folks.

Margaret 16:43 Yeah. And I fucking hate this guy, historical guy, Sergey, like he is trash. And he is absolutely the kind of guy who will get his friends arrested on purpose in order to advance the cause without asking their permission or telling them what's happening, right. And I think he has like, lost his ethics in what he's doing. And his whole thing he writes this book called Catechism of the revolutionary that is the revolutionary is a doomed man is one of the main concepts of this book, in which basically like, you don't have friends, you don't have lovers. You have the revolution and you will die. And it has like a romance to it has like a beauty to it. Right? I think fundamentally, it's a flawed concept. But what's really interesting to me is that in in andorre, you have a character who I believe is a conscious reflection of the Sergey model, although Sergey was not actually the leader of revolution he wanted to be but he was a fucking whatever he was also tried guy who fucking killed his own side more than he killed the other side and all around sucked. And so So luthan is almost this like, the positive incarnation of a Skynet ship so far, in that he's doomed. And he makes the hard calls and stuff. But he's not quite a fully authoritarian leader. You know, there's a couple points where he gives people full information and lets them make their own decisions. His assistant whose name I also don't remember clearly has a can exert a certain amount of power over him. He's not quite a dictator. And he's clearly tormented by the fact that in some ways, he is a dictator of, of the revolution. And the thing that I find interesting, almost some of his rant, and I'm really curious are your thoughts about it? The thing I find really interesting about it is how it compares to the manifesto that were being presented by the dead kid.

Io 18:35 And he made the mix the fucking hot the hot space, the space twink the crime the crime think loving little revolution, the crime

Margaret 18:44 prank. Yeah, the crime twink. Who rules and I love his character, because he's like, afraid, but he like does it anyway, even though it literally kills him. Like that is something to aspire to. I mean, I want to survive.

Io 18:59 It's I aspire to be crushed by a metaphor for galactic capital myself. Yeah,

Margaret 19:06 exactly. And in his manifesto, that we start exploring right at the end of the season, he talks about the enemy specifically as authority in a way that like, this is why earlier I was like, I will go to bat a little bit about andorre being anarchists propaganda, but only a little bit, right. But it's not the enemy isn't the Empire. The enemy has authority in what he what he is writing. And I'm wondering whether this will cause conflict in future episodes, or whether they kind of in this case mean authority mean like biggle authority like the Empire, not like scars, scars character, but I I'm really excited about that tension. I'm really excited to see what they do with it.

Io 19:51 Yeah, me too. I love that he has his little his little monologue that beautiful, beautiful monologue. I've made my mind into a Unless place and I I work for a sunrise that I will never see and again for what I do and I'll and all that shit as he's talking to this this guy who infiltrated the the Empire to give them all information and he's prepared to preparing to sacrifice a squad of like nine people on his team just so the Empire doesn't get wise.

Margaret 20:26 It's like 30 people I think it's a bunch of people up

Io 20:31 to too many people. I'll I'll go ahead and say it. But yeah, he he does represent that very, like the revolutionary isn't doomed man. thing in a more competent braver way than, than that fucker. Yeah. But I love it. It's more, it's really, I mean, revolutions are morally complex, you're not going to get out of them with your hands clean. And I like that they're not like the original theory of the original Star Wars. Is, is Past is past the point where there's nothing you where the Rebellion has been built up. But to organize something at that scale in a galaxy of apathetic, or unorganized or unmotivated people is, is going to be a fucked process, especially when he's like, Yeah, we want, we want the Empire reacting, we want them. We want them cracking down and making people's lives miserable, like OB like, yeah, like, obviously, fuck that. And but acts of insurrection are going to make your enemy crack down in that way. And he's, he's preparing for that eventuality.

Margaret 21:58 Yeah. So he once again, is presenting this like, like, there's a version of him that he could be like, full on accelerationist, right. accelerationism being the concept of like, kind of making things worse, so that people realize they're bad, and then try and make things better or whatever. Right. And, and he absolutely, he makes several statements about how like, look, it's going to get worse, right? But he's not quite so far. It's not like he's quite making things bad on purpose, so much as he's not stopping them from getting bad. And to me, and maybe I'm just like, I want to like him. Talk about luthan here. Yeah. But to me, this is a really big important difference, right? Like, people have been making the claim that you shouldn't do anything disruptive, because it'll like look bad. Or even more than that, it'll cause the police to crack down, right. And that claim stops people from resisting quite often, because realistically, people don't want bad things to happen. That's why we're interested in fictitional representations of revolution, is because we want a better world for our Star Wars characters. And since we want a better world, we want to take certain actions to try and get a better world. But when you turn it into a fight, the other side's gonna fight to. And so, you know, I don't think that it is ethically on the person who throws a brick at a window. I don't believe it is on them, the police crackdown on to resistance movements that could result from that write ethically, there's all kinds of arguments that people can make different ways about this. I think throwing the brick to make things worse, is fucked up. But I think throwing the brick, because it is the best expression in the best way that you are able to choose what to do when the Empire puts that moral weight on us as potential rebels and says it's your fault that we are hitting you. That is like, I mean, it's abuse of logic, and it's a real fucked up thing. And like, you know, you get into this like the very the climax of the entire season. Is that this kid who I have a shitty memory I think maybe his dad got killed by the Empire throws a bomb at the very end. And they did a what's good? Yeah, he does a hey, market for anyone who wants to listen to that episode about the market. And so first episode ever of cool people do cool stuff in which someone throws a bomb at some cops when the cops had been really fucked up and the cops opened fire and it causes this whole big fucking thing. Right? And, and I'm not mad at that kid. Was it the right move? I've literally no idea. Right and the world will never know whether or not it was the right idea because we only get the one thing that we saw happen. Yeah, I'm always

Io 24:48 I'm almost 100% of the time on people who have the bravery to try. Try some shit and the others side, like the fascist playbook is to use our conscience against us for for in a in a Stop hitting yourself type of way.

Margaret 25:12 Yeah.

Io 25:14 That is not. Yeah, you can't. Like I can't imagine somebody even having the foresight to being like, Oh, I'm going to do this because it'll make it worse. But the argument of just like, what will the news say if this happened, or that this that and you're not going to get you're going to turn people off from our side is this is has, has failed for has failed for centuries? Now.

Margaret 25:42 I will say, though, I don't sorry, look,

Io 25:44 I just don't want to fuck with it anymore.

Margaret 25:49 But I think of as an ethical argument, it is like a, I think it is a bad ethical argument to say like that that kid should have thrown the bomb, right in, in this fictional Star War that we're talking about. I don't care about the ethical argument against that. But if you're throwing a bomb at the oppressive force that is busy oppressing you, your conscience is clear. From my point of view, right? The strategic question is where it gets really interesting. And is it a good idea? Is a very different question from is it? justifiable? You know? And that's where it gets into, like, really messy stuff where it's like, well, that's just hard to know. I mean, the history of people killing tyrants in on Earth is a real mixed bag. Right, in terms of its efficacy,

Io 26:43 it tends to assassinations do tend to have a tendency to get messy.

Margaret 26:48 Yeah. And often, they make everything worse. And not just in a like, everything has to get worse before it gets better way. But sometimes it's like, no, everything just sucks now. And everything.

Io 27:00 But but the extent situation was analysis was like unsustainable something. Yeah. Like, no one, no one can predict how things will play out. But there was a chance that they could have could have gone well, and if, if nothing else, you sure you've shown power to be vulnerable? Yeah. Which, which echoes through history? And I don't know, I guess the I guess that's a bigger question that we can keep getting into, but to bring it back into, into and or a little bit. Uh huh. As as for numix Little manifesto, every act of insurrection pushes our lines forward?

Margaret 27:51 Yeah. Go ahead. Sorry. No, go on. Yeah, and they even use the term insurrection there. Right. Yeah. Which is like,

Io 28:01 they got there. They get so explicit. I didn't expect them to.

Margaret 28:04 I know, a manifesto for pure

Io 28:07 rocks.

Margaret 28:09 I know and like, and it's specifically like, I'm with I think it's Kropotkin I don't know I actually just mostly, I don't always read all of the, the old books by the people. I used to read books about the people. But you know, dead anarchists. Pokken I think it was him who was like, why do we have this like dichotomy between insurrection and revolution? It might have been Malatesta one of these fucking dead anarchists was like, What a useless dichotomy between insurrection revolution, like revolutions are made up of like, insurrections, that's what you know, as compared to this legging. You know, the traditional way presenting the dichotomy is that you need to have, you know, on a purely insurrection aside, like all that matters is the insurrection the larger overarching goal is not worth attempting to accomplish, or setting your sights on, right. And then on the purely revolutionary side, it's like, Oh, don't do the insurrections because they'll diffuse our energy or the wake the sleeping dragon or they'll, you know, cause the cops to crack down on us or whatever, right? All that matters is building up the mass to have the one big, glorious revolution. And like, history, at least the history of revolution is like no, no, no insurrections or that manifesto is right, like an andorre. They want to have a revolution. What that revolution should look like there is not a agreement upon which kind of rules

Io 29:34 Oh, that's the bet that's the best part of the show when he when he goes to me. Saga reira mine yeah, man. The cool yeah, the cool guy. He's talking about so anarchist. Yeah, I don't, I don't I'm I'm not gonna fuck with that guy. He's a he's a human supremacist, and those guys are separatists for et cetera, et cetera. And they're there. I'm the only one Just think pure ideology here. Yeah. And I'm like, Yeah, I've been in a room with him.

Margaret 30:06 Yeah, totally. But his, but then they say his ideologies like, well, anarchy is not an ideology or I don't remember the actual quote.

Io 30:15 Yeah. And his response is just a shrug because like, Whatever dude, I'm not, I'm not here to convince you. I'm off. He's on. Maybe Maybe I'm just projecting what I want to see. But he's on the like, yeah, you know, there's there's action and then there's whatever other useless surrounds what, what action is being taken? And I'm like, yeah, yeah, he's right. Yeah. Well, this is all like laying this ideological bedrock that eventually morphs into the same neoliberal government that easily falls to Deathstar. Three and Force Awakens. Like you've got we can keep on this but maybe we should talk about Rogue One and in a second because we just watched that a few nights ago, like the early days of a revolution are ya so spicy?

Margaret 31:15 Yeah, that's when I like everything is still possible. And but to use Sagar era to tie us into Rogue One, you know, by the time Rogue One comes around saga gara is basically just like the terrorist who's still like, who's still just been like, No, I know where the Empire is. So I'm gonna fuck them up. You know? He's not like trying to think like fourth dimensional chess or whatever he's just trying to fuck up the Empire and like I think that fucking rules and I think that yeah, I I like him. I mean, obviously by the time Rogue One comes around he's like his neuro divergence has continued in a way that makes him probably unsuitable to be a leader have

Io 32:02 a bit of a Chase had a hard he's had a hard go of it.

Margaret 32:05 Yeah, he is. He does not mind revolutionary suicide. He is perfectly content with revolutionary suicide. By the time he gets his chance.

Io 32:15 Yeah, how Yeah, how could you not and they the plot of Rogue One is they need to get close to Sagar era they so they break. I forget her. I forget her name. The main the main character of the movie. Yeah. To get her close to saw because they want they just want to kill sock cats there. Because he's making them look bad, essentially. Yeah. And because they're developing into Yeah, like liberal revolutionaries hmm And so and saw is still is still out there on Jetta. Just just like stealing shit from the Empire blow blowing shit up. They can't get to him.

Margaret 33:00 When I thought they were there to kill him. They thought they were there to kill protagonist, dad. And they just needed to get to saw in order to find out what protagonist dad was.

Io 33:10 Like, right before they and or gets on the ship. There. They're just like, Alright, remember that thing that we told her? Fuck that no kit when you see saw Calum? Oh, I think that though, I think maybe they do the same thing with Matt's Matt's Mickelson's character.

Margaret 33:27 Okay, so that ties into what you're talking about, about. You've got into like, hard choices guy luthan. Right. And he's presented as like, the real radical in in andorre. But it's the same attitude of kill people who are making us look bad because you're thinking about the big picture that leads us into the liberal state stage of revolution that you're talking about right where they you know, are just going to end up being like the sort of like less interested in revolution revolutionary movement and I think that those are related I think that the cold hard calculating leader is absolutely the person who's going to be like alright kill saw All right, kill protagonists dad. Because because they think they're thinking about strategy instead of ethics. And I know ethics is like a word that people have a million different thoughts and feelings about but like what I mean like doing what's right, rather than like, what is believed to be the most strategic I think is and that's what I like about saw is he does what's right which is fight the Empire. Yeah,

Io 34:35 I see him as an ideological insurrectionary anarchist and luthan as just a straight up insurrectionary who, like a like an insurrectionary who wants to get extremely Sun Tzu about it all.

Margaret 34:51 Yeah. So if I can, I mean a nihilist in like the Russian sense not in the like anarchist sense, you know? Because It's not a coincidence that most of the Russian nihilists were like Social Democrats at heart. Maybe that's getting a little too off. So,

Io 35:08 yeah, like I don't I do see I see a lot of people trying to square this to as like Disney published like anarchists propaganda that's like this and that and I'm like, I don't think they did that it's it's in its set in outer space. It's it's a thing, but it's obviously made by people who like, give a shit about these things like and like you and me care about, like the historical stories and context of revolutionary movements. Yeah. And it's from its from that perspective of people who like who are interested in also think it's just think that fighting cops is the coolest thing you can do with your life? Yeah, and making a show about cool people fighting cops, and that is cool to me. Yeah. But uh, do you want to do you want to talk a little bit about about Rogue One? Sure. So well, I guess we were I guess we were already kind of kind of on it. Saw he lives in the holy holy city of Jeddah where the Jedi began as a society of monks and they were guardians against galactic tyranny and fascism, but eventually became a liberal military arm of the Republic or whatever the fuck, and a bunch of other shit happens, but where I think, oh, where this movie really starts screaming is you get to this fucking this stupid. General Assembly is suddenly ready to pack it up. Because suddenly they're up against these overwhelming odds and like, you remember that? That nerd? This fucking nerd shouts What is she proposing? And everyone's just like, oh gosh, crumbs? Well, I guess I guess we're done for packet in everybody. But luckily we plucky heroes. This platoon of doomed men who say fuck this they go rogue because a man with nothing to lose in a sharp stick can take the day and they're the last chance to to save the galaxy to do some overwhelming violence against the Empire against and go against all this bureaucratic cowardice is just a big they all pack into one shitty spaceship. Huddled bunch of cuddle puddle revolutionary saying fuck it life sucks book the Empire. Let's do a cool suicide. And do they

Margaret 37:42 wanted to get out? I'm sure they did. Yeah,

Io 37:46 they do. It was not. It was not likely. And yeah, it wasn't for this. This is a part of canon. This is the part of the Extended Universe candidate that has transferred over the Mon Calamari you all know Admiral Ackbar it's a trap, etc. Um, that that planets and and race of like people involved in the rebellion are like the most ready to throw down. And I'm glad that that transferred over a Rogue One. Everyone else is just like, beans. Well, I guess the Empire wins. And Mon Calamari was like, Oh, we've got Rogue One. Awesome. Love those guys.

Margaret 38:30 Totally. I mean, and that's why I like Rogue One so much right? Yeah. As because you have your doomed revolutionary cuddle puddle that goes off to go do massive violence and steal some plans. And then the like, solidarity that it will kill you is like what breaks my heart more than anything else. If you want to see me cry in a movie, like the second Lord of the Rings movie when the right of the row Hyrum went Rohan shows up to support condor is a safe space for nerd for being a nerd. So when when they roll up, and they yell a red day, a blood day and it's actually this Norse maybe not Norse is the Scandinavian poem. That's the Tolkien's ripping off but it's fucking beautiful. And then they like scream like death death death and then like run charging into the forces of Mordor. Right? To have the backs of Condor that's when I start crying the most consistently in in The Lord of the Rings trilogy. And so Rogue One operates on the similar principle of the like, Well fuck it, I guess will show up like like sometimes when all your friends are jumping off a bridge like you should probably show up to support them anyway. You know? And like,

Io 39:48 would you rather die all at once rather than piece by piece?

Margaret 39:52 Yeah, yeah, totally. Which is you know from and or, and then there's also a quote from Blackhawks speaks, which I haven't read in a long time and so I Um, I apologize for possibly paraphrasing this badly but in the war against the colonization of what later became the United States or whatever, right? You know, a bunch of people are sitting around being like, well, we should go to war against these fucking white invaders. And someone is like, No, we shouldn't write because it's useless. If we do it, we'll die. It's like killing mosquitoes. You can kill them, but they keep coming in. There's, there's no point to it. And then the rest of the council is like, alright, well, we're doing it. And this isn't fiction. This is a nonfiction piece. And, and the same guy who was like, well, we shouldn't do this as like, well, I'm coming with you. Because I'm not a coward. You know, and I, I really like that concept within Rogue One. The like, well, this isn't how we wish it had gone. This wasn't what we planned. But we're not going to fucking just let you go out and do there. On your own. We're not cowards. Obviously, some of the people in that council chamber were cowards. Yeah, a

Io 40:59 lot of people didn't show up. And I think a lot of other people were invested in the in the assembly or didn't invested in the in building an army against the Empire, rather than we can get we can really get a lot done with some sabotage. We can get a lot done with with a plucky group of fuckers. Yeah, just plop it plopping down and, and putting on some weird uniforms.

Margaret 41:31 Yeah. And it, it was considered right. Like, I think a lot of what we're talking about about like, insurrections are what pushed us forward. You know, it wasn't like, like, let's just, I know, where we can go throw a bomb, let's just go throw a bomb randomly. They were like, What are we going to do? You know, like, the first big action and AND, OR is like, we're gonna steal all this money because we need it. Right. And so all of the actions have a purpose, they tie into a strategy and I love. That's one of the things I love about Rogue One, right? It's like, you know, all right, well, against all odds, we're gonna go get the Deathstar plans. You know, rather than just we're gonna go explode a thing, because the Empire has lots of things. You know,

Io 42:22 I got a lot, they got lots of things. And I'm, I think that I think that there's a, there's a poetry in an affirmation of life in attacking something symbolically. But yeah, what you've got, you got a symbol and a rush of adrenaline and a, and a huge danger to yourself and everyone else around you, if you're going to put some danger out there. Be sure of it. And I don't know, maybe, maybe have some maybe have a little bit more more payoff? Yeah. Yeah, like, in Minecraft?

Margaret 43:00 It's totally like, in Star Wars, you should, you know, think about like, if you're gonna gamble at all, you should wait till the pot is sweet. I don't know, whatever. Yeah, no, it's

Io 43:15 go bigger, go big, and then go home.

Margaret 43:18 Yeah. Through your safe house. I do think that the Star Wars rebellion in general, does relate to a style of revolution that is less the style of revolution that I would guess the average person listening to this, like, thinks about, like, the history that they're drawing from, at least based on what you were saying is like, national rebellions for against an oppressive outside force, right. You know, we haven't seen we've seen revolutionaries on the capital planet, but we haven't seen them being like, here's how we're going to take the Capitol planet, you know, as ours, right, because we're from here, whatever. Instead, you see all of these colonized forces, these colonized people, being like, we don't want to be colonized anymore. So we're now in this alliance of all these colonized people to fight against this oppressive force.

Io 44:12 Oh, that's just another thing that I like. I like a lot about andorre in that the end of the end of row of not row one of A New Hope is just this like, Lily, this this Dyess of of lily white heroes of the rebellion that might as well be out of like Triumph of the Will and like cheering and Chewbacca doesn't get a medal. I know that's well trod territory, but like, justice for my man AND and OR has very few white characters making up the the core of the rebellion.

Margaret 44:57 Yeah, yeah. And just under this funny problem that we're running into, from a cultural point of view that all of a sudden we're watching all these prequels, right? Or at least like I watched the game of thrones show, the new one house of dragons. And I liked it. I liked it a lot. I liked it possibly more than I like Game of Thrones. I've literally no idea what that's a statement that drew everyone mad at me or not.

Io 45:20 And dragons. You can't argue with that.

Margaret 45:23 Yeah, and it's less white. It's still majority white. But it is like markedly less white. And there's something kind of depressing about watching these prequels that are less white.

Io 45:35 Something very, something very bad must have happened between then and then.

Margaret 45:40 Yeah, even though what we're actually watching of course, is that, you know, the media that better choices getting made. Yeah, exactly. I don't know just something I think about when I watch that kind of shit.

Io 45:55 This one This one sort of maps to my, you know, my, my, my headcanon of like, obviously, it's just the casting choices are better now. But it also maps to like successful revolutions. And especially like the one that installs like Princess Leia, Princess into like, royalty into positions of power in like a new Neo lib chorus on seated government eventually were like the people who did the dirty work saga Pereira and Andorra and whoever else are long forgotten, we're just we're all just cannon fodder for this respectable and hard they they fought hard, but they but they were put in an impossible position but like let the let the lower castes get their hands dirty in a way that every successful revolution winds up winds up doing which is why like, like, you know, I'm obviously interested in in a in massive change but the thing that really interests me is not the end result but the the process the affirmation of life of being able to resist in your modern day and live for Me and artistically. But just live rebelliously in the time you are in not for some far off future not what am I supposed to do put put all my put all my fucking plans and morals on hold because I hope that the the proletarian revolution is going to come off some way. Come on, come around. If I if I just joined enough DSA chapters. Here's your sign.

Margaret 47:52 I mean, I feel like andorre gets into this kind of stuff in a useful way with the whole prison sequence, right? Where they're in prison or Prison Break. I know and so they're all in prison and they're all doing prison labor. And, you know, is a brutal regime very controlled, it does the thing where like, part of the systems of control it's very panopticon ish, like, part of the systems that control is also that the, I guess in that Fukui way or whatever, right where like people are controlling themselves because they, you know, the prisoners are in charge of the prisoners on some level. Right.

Io 48:32 And you got Gollum is the boss.

Margaret 48:37 Yeah, and oh, I thought you were telling me we watch this together. I thought you were telling me that the really old guy was Gollum.

Io 48:47 The no Andy Serkis. The other prisoners the guy who did mocap for for the one who literally literally call them I wasn't making I wasn't being ageist.

Margaret 49:02 But I thought you were saying the old man was the person who did the motion capture for Gollum.

Io 49:06 Oh, he used to be very spry.

Margaret 49:10 Okay, okay. I mean, so, so go we all you know and and so, you know, so you have Gollum who is the sergeant essentially, he was telling everyone what to do on the cellblock. And then as soon as they know that they're doomed men. They're able to be free. Right? And as a very literal metaphor in this particular context, that as soon as and then the fact that they're like, What is freedom mean? Freedom means jumping into the water even if you can't swim and trying. Right? Is a very non subtle, and they just express it as beautiful. They just have this beautiful scene of everyone jumping in the water. They don't have a grandeur. land they don't hold the guards hostage in order to get I mean to be clear might have been smarter if they had held the gods hostage in order to get like an escape vehicle but whatever

Io 50:09 oh they would they would they would have just bought bombed the planet.

Margaret 50:13 I know mainly but yeah, that's true. That's you know, like,

Io 50:16 like modern you know, a modern prison uprising will hold Guards, guards hostages for the sake of like the people who are holding the guards hostage hostage are going to get extra years on their mobile a ton of extra time on their sentence, if not outright killed by it, but could win could wind up winning better conditions for people inside I don't have I don't have faith that prison officials were uphold their end of the bargain. But yeah, a resistant resistance is is beautiful, no matter. The end result somebody somebody slipped Andy Serkis a copy of blesses the flame. And they're all like, fuck it. Let's go. Yeah, no, let's go for a dive.

Margaret 51:06 Totally. And like the ones who die immediately while throwing a wrench at the second armed guard are just as like beautiful and free as the people who swim to safety, you know? And like? No, I really like that whole long extended metaphor that they did around what it means to just actually be free. Which is why I do hold that. The I don't know. I mean, I guess the real question would be to know the writers and you know, because like, people talk about, oh, Disney made this like, no, no, Disney didn't make this Disney put their name on it. It was made by people in the same way that like workers make all value. You know, the the writers and the actors and the directors and all of these people like made and or? And yeah, exactly. So I don't know I don't know where I'm going with that. But

Io 52:08 we'll I had a if you want to if you want to think about it a bit I had. I wish I could remember who said this so I would credit them but somebody put out that when Disney was making was making the Lion King and Pocahontas at the same time, they put all their stock into Pocahontas and really micromanage the entire project. I've never seen Pocahontas it sounds like it's a decent movie. But Lion King undoubtedly turned out awesome. Because the because all the writers and artists involved got creative control of it because they didn't have they didn't have Walt over their shoulder the whole time. Same thing happened with Star Wars because Andorra was being developed at the same time that Obi Wan Kenobi, A, A and nobody, and nobody asked me, but the show was good. I did not have a good time watching goon McGregor do his thing again. But yeah, they really micromanage that and they were just like a thing that's like rogue wants share proceed and makes me a little nervous about season two because they'll see that this is is like it and I read I don't really know much about the writers I know that they were interested in like Palestinian resistance and the Haitian Revolution and things like that, which you can see in the show and that the next season is going to get more into like the the ship that I was so excited about, which was like the internal politics of rebellions like I would love I would love to see saw Guerrera talk some more shit about about space to Kunis or whatever. But yeah, yeah, fingers fingers crossed, they'll they'll realize that it was successful because they didn't get their fucking fingerprints all over it.

Margaret 54:02 Well, maybe next year, we'll be sitting down to do another episode and we'll be we'll know whether or not everything went to hell or whether it pulled it off.

Io 54:12 You'd be like No, they weren't they brought a AR two d two is there for some reason. That's another that's another great thing about this. Like it was like I think it's great because the rebellion never really got its do it's like the entire plot of Star Wars and nobody ever really like fucks with it. It's just like the just like the scenery. But also we don't have we don't have to hear anything about space lasers and the Jedi and Mother I guess there is a wisecracking droid, but I love that little guy.

Margaret 54:48 Yeah, nice. And he's, I don't know. I mean, you need the wisecrack. Enjoy in the same way that you need. The animal who sits around and tells jokes or you know, whatever like that is a good is a good character that gets added to TV and movies. Yeah, bring up at Ewoks. But it still was like, way more. I mean, it's essentially it's it's more proletarian than like, we're working class or whatever jargon word I supposed to use here. Instead of like space nights and space princesses and space royalty and you know, all that shit. It's just like, fucking people in the muck getting it done.

Io 55:28 Yeah the space the space serfs out there, perfectly capable of braiding a stormtrooper? Yeah. As good as Luke Luke Skywalker. Yeah. Well, I think we did it. We talked about everything AND and OR. But, Margaret, any final thoughts?

Margaret 55:46 I'm just, I'm excited for the quality of the storytelling that we like now have available to us as we go forward, because the world is in very dire conditions right now. And we need better stories are so little Gwen has the story of is the quote about like, we need authors who can remember freedom, you know, and I think that we're like, we're starting to see those stories. And we're starting to see him, including in mainstream places. And I think that's like one of the most promising things that I've ever seen as a radical or whatever. So I'm excited. Who knows, maybe it'll all go off the rails, but for now, is good.

Io 56:28 There will always be small examples and whether it erupts soon. Being that freedom as a pure idea, or we just have to keep settling for these little diamonds in the rough. I don't know. I'm excited. Yeah, there does seem to be a lot more good stuff recently. But that's us. That's the anarcho geek review. We did it folks.

Margaret 56:52 In our cooking, or our

Io 56:54 that's the one. That's what

Margaret 56:58 this is where anyone is listening. We used to have a blog called a narco geek review. And that's not what this show is called.

Io 57:07 No, not related to the anarcho geek review. We disavow we

Margaret 57:12 know that Reza vacco splitters they're split out yeah, we've

Io 57:17 split we split off from them. They were ideologically unserious. Yeah. Margaret, you want to tell people where where they can find you?

Margaret 57:27 Yeah, I've got some podcast once called cool people did cool stuff. I referenced it like three times this article, I asked to talk about individual and community preparedness on another podcast by the same strangers network called live like the world is dying. And until well, by the time you listen to this, I might not be on Twitter anymore, but I'm currently on Twitter at Magpie killjoy Instagram at Margaret killjoy all that shit. I Oh, what about you?

Io 57:53 I'm, as of this recording, still still on Twitter, at bum lung. And I'm also on Instagram at bum lung. And if I get on any other social media fingers crossed, they won't have to. It'll probably be under that as well. And before we go, I would I would love to thank we have a Patreon patreon.com/strangers In a tangled wilderness and I would love to thank some of our Patreon supporters. Right now. Hoss the dog. That's a good boy. Mike, aka mkhaya Kaya, thank you. Like I

Margaret 58:33 say yeah. Oh, actually. Actually, that's funny. That's right MC. Mikayla, actually my a veteran, right. Make

Io 58:42 that McCain or mkhaya. Please settle this bet and whichever one wins I was the other a coke. Chris Sam Kirk. Eleanor. Jennifer Starr Oh, cat J. Chelsea. Dana. David. Nicole. Mickey. Paige, S J. Shawn Hunter, Theo. Boise. Mutual Aid. Milica and Papa Runa. Hope I got that one. Right. Thank you. Thank you all for your support. Big hugs and kisses out to all of you. And thank you everyone who listened. And yeah, to tune in next time when we'll talk about some other nerd bullshit and I'll see you at the movies.

59:40 The times when the struggle seems impossible. I know this already. And then, I'm sure both by the scale of the enemy. Remember this? Freedom is a pure idea. It occurs spontaneously and without instruction. Random Acts of insurrection. are occurring constantly throughout the galaxy, there are a whole armies, battalions that have no idea that they've already enlisted in the course. Remember that the frontier of the rebellion is everywhere. And even the smallest act of insurrection pushes our lines forward. And then remember this imperial need for control is so desperate because it's so unnatural. Tyranny requires constant effort, it breaks, it leaks. Authorities brittle oppression is the mask of fear. Remember that and know this. The day will come when all the skirmishes and battles has moments of defiance will have flooded the banks of the Empire's authority and then there will be one too many. One single thing will break the siege remember this try